Armenians protest protocols

" As long as Armenia continues military occupation of a neighboring country (Azerbaijan) and keeps a million Azeris away from their homes in blatant violation of international law and U.N. Security Council resolutions there cannot be an opening of the borders between Turkey and Armenia.

And as long as Armenia continues waging campaigns of defamation of another neighbor (Turkey) based on an alleged but never court-proven genocide, coveting that neighbor’s lands, and failing to respect its sovereignty, diplomatic relations cannot be established between Turkey and Armenia.

Armenian Diaspora can shout, scream, deceive, attack, intimidate, and terrorize all they want. At the end of the day, it will be Armenia’s return to acting neighborly and peacefully which will determine Turkey-Armenia relations-- not to mention Armenia’s future, if not survival. "

" Regarding Melanie Hickens article regarding Armenians protest rally at Pelanconi Park area against the protocols for new talks and deal between Armenia and Turkey.

Which is part of a “road map” agreed upon last spring for normalizing diplomatic relations between Turkey and Armenia and the possibility of opening up their borders to each other?

What I found very interesting was how many Armenians expressed anger about the protocols not fair to Armenia.

Chanting don’t give in to Turkey, stand up and fight until the end.

Claiming that the organized rally was all about the Armenian community rallying together,”

But I have to ask all of you that participated in this rally, one question?

How can any of you expect the people of Armenia not to give in to turkey, and to stand up and fight till the end?

If none of you are willing to do the same? "

" The conflict is between Armenia and Turkey! So, why in the world do these protests take place in Glendale, California, United States of AMERICA??!! America has nothing to do with these conflicts. It makes no sense to me why these protest have to take place in our city. Perhaps they should be taking place in Armenia. "

" If Turks committed a genocide which is the greatest crime of humanity, and if Turkey really avoids of facing its history, and if the Armenians and their supporters sincerely want Turkey to do it, then why do the Armenians persistently refuse Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and other countries? For example:

*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians abondened the project refusing to continue to fulfil their commitments and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians.

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on April 13, 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007.


*And the Turkish prime minister repeated the same invitation on February 2008 , in Munich at the 44th Security Conference where the Armenian Minister of Foreign Affairs Mr. Oskanian also attended?

In neither of these invitations was there any precondition, unlike it is claimed by the Armenians.

*Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the invitation of the then chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halacoglu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

*The Ottoman and Turkish archives are open, unlike it is claimed by the diaspora. http://www.ankara.edu.tr/english/yazi.php?yad=36. http://www.tsk.mil.tr/ENGLISH/8_FRAGMENTS_FORM_HISTORY/8_1_Armenian_Issues/issues/Armenian_Activities_in_the_Archive_Documents/Armenian_Activities_in_the_Archive_Documents.html;
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Documents2.pdf; http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Documents3.pdf; http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/kitap/kitap.asp?kitap=991.

Even, Armenian historian Ara Sarafian from Gomitas Institute and Hilmar Kaiser searched the Ottoman archives (www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com)

*In spite of this, why are the Armenian archives including the one in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston closed? Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives; but the directors of the Zoryan Institute replied that they did not have enough money to open the archives. Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation promised financial support.Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? (Nüzhet Kandemir, http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/418517.asp).

Note that Zoryan Institute has quite enough money to provide financial support for Taner Akçam who advocated the Armenian claims while working in Minnesota University until recently, as confirmed by the university authorities (http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/univ-Minn.htm),.

Why are the Armenians terribly afraid of establishment of historical joint commissions (See the news entitled ‘RA foreign minister didn’t say Armenia agrees to form commission of historians’ on November 26, 2008 in Panarmenian and ‘Dashnaks warn Sarkisian over Armenian genocide study’ on July 9, 2008 in Armenia Liberty; http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/history001.html

Is it not striking that Sarafian, the head of the London-based Gomidas Institute, said Prime
Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s offer to Armenia to establish a commission of historians to
resolve the Armenian issue was positive, but Armenia was the wrong address. He also said that freedom of expression for historians in Armenia is limited and the genocide issue has become a political tool. http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10426989.asp?scr=1

If a genocide had really occured, why did Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America announce ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’? Why did the chief of the Armenian Archives in Armenia tell that they were not interested in the achives, but all they are interested is the world’s public opinion.

Or why have the Armenians not admitted to an international court yet?
In your life, have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And, have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court, and tells that he need not prove that person’s guilt, because the community has already accepted him as guilty?
In this situation would you not question the era you are living in? 5000 BC or 2000BC?

What else should the Turks do to face their history? Is it Turkey/Turks or Armenia and those who support them who are terribly afraid of facing their history? "

" The following sentences are very striking:
‘The most controversial facet of the protocols is the proposed formation of a historical commission to question the validity of the Armenian Genocide.
“That would make what has become a political issue into a historical issue,” Santikian said’.

Are these not enough to display that an historical issue had been turned to a political issue. Why do the Armenians fiercefully reject establishment of historical commissions is that they fear to take the control of historians unlike the control they attained up till now on the politicians. They want to assume themselves as victims and try to consider the death of Armenians in WWI, as an equivalent of Jewish Holocaust. However there is not any similarity:

Unlike the Jewish Holocaust, which was proven before the Nuremburg Tribunal with the trappings of due process, there has been no kind of court decision about what the Armenians call a ‘genocide’ nor has the Armenians ever applied to any court. Moreover, International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, the Armenian allegation of genocide lacks evidence and legal support.

I call the readers of the forum to ask themselves these questions:

Did the Jews urge the parliaments to pass resolutions to recognize that the events which took place in WWII were genocide? Did they bargain with the politicians of the country they live, to write their history and pass resolutions as they wished it to have been in exchange of Jewish votes?

Did the Jews close their archives and prevent the historians from making research?

Did the Jews threaten the historians, sue them or bomb their houses to prevent them talking all the details about their history, like the Armenians did?
(www.sarigelinbelgeseli.com;http://209.232.239.37/gtd1/ViewIncident.aspx?id=56624 http://turkishweekly.net/comments.php/id2418/top/comments.php?id=594, http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/69histors-charny.htm, http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/intimidate.htm)

Did the Jews get frightened to discuss these events with all the historians of the world like the Armenians have been doing? (See the news entitled ‘RA foreign minister didn’t say Armenia agrees to form commission of historians’ on November 26, 2008 in Panarmenian and the news entitled ‘Dashnaks warn Sarkisian over Armenian genocide study’ on July 9, 2008 in Armenia Liberty; and also see http://www.hairenik.com/armenianweekly/august_2004/history001.html)

Did the Jews establish outlawed terrorist organizations like ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities, to introduce their thesis to the public, like the Armenians did? (http://www.ataa.org/reference/topalian/VIS6_Berkoz_Affidavit.pdf; Michael M. Gunter, 'Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People': A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, Wesport-New York, Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 74; Gunter Lewy, 'Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People:' A Study of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism, pp. 99-100).

Did the Jews perform massacres upon the German and present the photographs of them, as if they were the pictures of the Jews killed by the German? (It is of note that the Armenians have been using the photographs of the dead bodies of Turkish/Muslim whom they themselves massacred, as if they were the pictures of the Armenians who were massacred by the Turks (for fake photoes see http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/forgeries-fotos.html).

They even have presented the dead bodies of the Azeri Turks whom were massacred by the Armenians themselves in Hocali, as bodies of the Armenians killed in 1915.

-Also, it is of note that the Armenians presented many other forgeries and lies http://www.ataa.org/reference/forgeries-delen.html, http://www.ataa.org/reference/andonian-ataov.html) Did the Jews attempt to make forgeries in documents?
No. They attempted to make none of them except applying to the International Courts.

The Armenians claım that Internatıonal Scholars of Genocıde approve their thesis. Then, why did they not feel their evidences powerful enough and use fake documents and lies?

Why are THEY afraıd of simply applying to the International court of justice, instead of spending huge amounts of money to make the propaganda of their thesis?

They hate the Turks claiming that they committed genocide. Then why are they not willing to display their documents to the world public and use this golden opportunity to vomit their hatred against the Turks?

IS IT NOT OBVIOUS THAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO FACE WITH THEIR OWN LIES! "

" eileen_in_glendale- My thoughts exactly! I totally agree!
I am originally from the Southern part of these United States of America. American born and raised with ancestry that goes so far back there is no doubt.
Now, if I wanted to protest some action that was taking place in the South-I had better find myself somewhere in the southern U.S. If I am living here on the west coast I am not subject to whatever is going on in the south and any protest I might have lacks validity unless I choose to place myself where the issue is and where change or solution need take place. At least this is in the confines of the same country.
How can the Armenians here, standing on U.S. soil, partaking of U.S. benefits and opportunities, expect their opinion to matter or make a difference when they have abandoned the country they are protesting about? Go back to Armenia and make your voice heard, if it is truly that important. Go back to where the changes need to be made, where they can be made. Of the Armenians I have heard even address the issue seem to have no solid foundation for their protests. They just want to be angry...at anyone or everyone. Must I remind you that I am
American, had nothing to do with your happenings in your country with another bordering yours, your ranting is to the wrong audience, closing your businesses for a day, not working, not attending school is a yearly event that we all treat with some amusement.
Because all of these things enacted here in America are not having an effect on the lifestyle of persons living in Turkey or Armenia. You are here in the U.S.A. and not in Armenia for some reason. What does it matter if you do not want to live there? What are YOU fighting for? There are plenty of causes here in this country that you could get passionate about. Causes that actually have an effect on your lifestyle here. Causes that should concern you since you choose to reside here. What is it really about? "

" Most Armenians want normal relations with Turkey, however, not at the expense of re-writing history.

Turkey and the Turkish people need to accept the fact that their ancestors committed atrocious crimes against humanity. Until they do, they will always have a mark on their country, their families, and their history.

What is happening in Armenia (giving in to the years of economic pressure and closed boarders by Turkey) will never be accepted by the Diaspora Armenians. Turkey must rise up and accept its history as Barrack Obama urged them to do. When they do, we can forgive them.

I don’t blame most Turks for not accepting this reality. I believe it is what they have been thought their whole lives (there was no Genocide). It is tough for a proud people to accept that their forefathers raped, murdered, and pillage innocent women and children. The truth will always prevail, no matter how long it will take.

Whether Turkey accepts this truth doesn’t change the truth. They committed Genocide. "

" America is a place where all races and ethnic groups meet to live with a common dream, to be free and happy as one nation. Even though U.S. history tells us that the Native Americans were the primary occupants of America land, there are many more now and all belong here equally. As equal citizens, we all are permitted the same rights and opportunities to better our lives and to improve social wellness. There are many voices that need to be heard to make our lives justifiable and honorable. Whether they be Armenians, Asians, Mexicans or any other ethical group, we all, as humans, have the righ to speak our opinions. "

" Aksaya, you seem the most illiterate. Let me quote your column. Did the Jews establish outlawed terrorist organizations like ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities, to introduce their thesis to the public, like the Armenians did?
Yes, they did, many times. Do a little more research and read about a man named Folke Bernadotte, he was a Swedish diplomat who saved 31,000 Jews from German concentration camps. He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the militant Zionist group Lehi, while pursuing his official duties. There are many more but I'll let you enlighten yourself. You make a stupid claim about photographs but you fail to do your homework about photography. How much of a change is there in photography between 1915 to 1945. Isn't it obvious that there would be a lot more photography during WW2. How many Armenian villagers had cameras during the Armenian Genocide, let alone be able to use one. Most of those photographs were taken by American and British journalists, which according to your ridiculous conspiracy theory, were planted by Armenians.
As far as documents are concerned. There have been many attempts to speak to the Turks about the Genocide. Their own intellectuals have brought forth documents proving the Armenian Genocide. One of those people is Orhan Pamuk. In January 2008, 13 ultra-nationalists, including Kemal Kerinçsiz, were arrested by Turkish authorities for participating in a Turkish nationalist underground organization, named Ergenekon, allegedly conspiring to assassinate political figures, including several Christian missionaries and Armenian intellectual Hrant Dink. Several reports suggest that Orhan Pamuk was among the figures this group plotted to kill, but of course you guys wouldn't buy this right? It's all Armenian conspiracy! Do you actually think America cares about the well being of Turkey or Armenia. America is all about self interest, i.e. heath care bill. Turkey equals military bases for America and as soon as that's not needed anymore than America will turn its head toward another country it can use. We all saw how America “protected” Georgia last year, which it considers a "ally.” We live in a country that started the first wars of the 21st century and yet Armenia is the terrorist misbehaving country, not warmongering America. Ask the Iraqis about genocide. Ask the people of Darfur and Rwanda about genocide, or is that being questioned to. According to the U.S. government they are not genocides. Flawed politics as usual. So I leave you people with this, you can yell and hate Armenians all you want, we are a country with little and our numbers are small, but we are strong and our voices will be heard. My invitation is on the table; Come to my home and tell my grandmother that the Armenian Genocide wasn't real. "

" To all the commenters in this forum, I have one piece of information they would have encountered had they done their research on this subject:

The majority of the modern Armenian diaspora was created as a result of the Genocide of 1915--those that were able to survive the massacres escaped to neighboring countries, and their descendants have since become nomads that have often moved back to Armenia, gone from country to country, or settled in the United States. If it were not for the Genocide, my bloodline would never have left historical Armenia and the diaspora would have been considerably smaller.

I agree that the diaspora does not know what is best for the Armenian people--but it is wrong to say that the diaspora is made up of Armenians who willfully abandoned their people and nation. "

" To the young Armenian American that wrote to all the commentators in this forum, I have one piece of information they would have encountered had they done their research on this subject:

That the majority of the modern Armenian Diaspora was created as a result of the genocide of 1915. And those that were able to survive the massacres escaped to neighboring countries, and their descendants who have since become nomads that have often moved back to Armenia, gone from country to country, or settled in the United States.

If it were not for the Genocide, my bloodline would never have left historical Armenia and the Diaspora would have been considerably smaller.
I completely disagree with your comments, and unable to relate to your belief.

Maybe that’s because I am an American, and as young as our country is compared to the rest of the world, one thing Americans have ever done is turn away from defending our families and our nation in any conflict regardless of our enemies since our country began.

That’s probably why I cannot understand, nor do the majority of Americans comprehend your ancestor’s motives as to why they ran away from defending Armenia, moving from country to country. It just doesn’t make any sense.

We should all be thankful that we live in the greatest nation in history. "

" Brydex,

Remember, the Armenian Genocide was not a war--it was a massacre that was carried out without advance notice.

The majority of Armenian civilians were not in a position to fight when they were being slaughtered by the thousands on a daily basis. Genocide victims are regular people who are not trained soldiers. That is how Genocide works--it capitalizes on the vulnerability of the naive, trusting masses.

The Genocide was not a battle, it was a systematic campaign that entailed the removal of all Armenian citizens of the Ottoman empire.

Please, do your research on the concept of Genocide--it is not the same as a war!

That isn't to say that there weren't Armenians fighting to defend their people as they were being murdered by the Ottomans--how do you think so many Armenians survived? Additionally, you wonder why the Armenians didn't defend Armenia at the time--there was no such thing as Armenia at that time! The Armenians were one of many minorities living in the Ottoman Empire for centuries. They did not have a country of their own! All they owned was their existence, and if they didn't survive, there wouldn't be an Armenia today!

The first Armenian Republic was formed in 1918--and guess who won a war with the Turks for the land that is modern-day Armenia? The Armenian armies who formed in reaction to their people's slaughter in 1915!

Why do you think there are so many Jews living outside of Israel? Why do you think there are Jewish communities in nearly every part of the world? Because they were massacred over and over again for thousands of years and fled from place to place for the sake of survival. There was no state of Israel until 1948 when the Zionists formed their own armies after thousands of years of exile and fought to HAVE a country in the first place.

The Jews and Armenians are not alone--don't forget that the America we are so proud of was founded on the bloody mass graves of Native Americans.

Don't make Americans look as ignorant as the international community considers us to be--DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE CRITICIZING SOMEONE ELSE'S HISTORY! "